Author Topic: Progressive Fans??  (Read 10975 times)

Adji

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Progressive Fans??
« on: June 16, 2010, 03:05:37 PM »
I thought I would start a separate topic on this after touching upon it in my introduction thread.

Why have I met so many guys that like fusion but don't get progressive music?

Personally I love both and would struggle to choose which one I prefer. I think they are more or less the same thing, progressive is just classical's answer to Jazz's fusion no?

Take this as an example
Progressive - George Bellas (One of my favourite players) The Dawn Of time
George Bellas - "The Dawn Of Time"

Fusion - Shawn Lane - Time Is The Enemy
Shawn Lane - Time Is The Enemy

To me they are almost the same thing except that progressive is rooted in classical and fusion is rooted in Jazz, however both are about breaking these rules and blurring the lines.

Anyone else agree? Or should I take my lve for progressive elsewhere?  ;D

Halfdim7

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Re: Progressive Fans??
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2010, 04:10:08 PM »
No worries, Adji. We made a point to be inclusive of prog from the start. The main thing is that fusion is much more under served on the net than prog is, so we primarily want to give a place where fans can discuss fusion, specifically. The lines are often very blurry(Allan Holdsworth playing with U.K., is a good example), though, so excluding prog entirely would be counterproductive. 
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Adji

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Re: Progressive Fans??
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2010, 04:16:44 PM »
No worries, Adji. We made a point to be inclusive of prog from the start. The main thing is that fusion is much more under served on the net than prog is, so we primarily want to give a place where fans can discuss fusion, specifically. The lines are often very blurry(Allan Holdsworth playing with U.K., is a good example), though, so excluding prog entirely would be counterproductive. 

Ah yeah, fusion is actually quite an under-appreciated music. I think both are equally as valuable and if the late great composers were still around (Bach, Debussy, Chopin etc) then I'd be willing to bet that Fusion and Progressive music is where they would be investing their time.

Halfdim7

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Re: Progressive Fans??
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2010, 04:24:07 PM »
You may very well be right, Adji!
People tend to forget that "Classical" music wasn't classical when it was being made, it was contemporary.
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Adji

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Re: Progressive Fans??
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2010, 04:29:18 PM »
You may very well be right, Adji!
People tend to forget that "Classical" music wasn't classical when it was being made, it was contemporary.

Agreed, I can't wait until 200 years time and people look at Holdsworth and go, 'pfff, listen to that poncy classical music, those folks from the 21st century should check out OUR fusion music!'  ;D ;D ;D

scottl

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Re: Progressive Fans??
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2010, 05:09:35 PM »
Glad to have you here Adji....

Can't claim to be a big prog fan myself, but I do respect the art and the skills required!!

For me, the fusion I like has its basis in jazz.....   Not neoclassical.   

Just my tastes!!   

funkle

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Re: Progressive Fans??
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2010, 05:58:43 PM »
Great Shawn Lane video. I love his playing & Time is the Enemy is a great album. It was really sad seeing his decline over the years.

The George Bellas was good too. Regarding progressive, I listen to it some. I think for me the issue is that I like the music to have some harmonic motion, and if it doesn't have that, then it has to groove.

I have a couple of the Planet X recordings, and MacAlpine, who is great at a lot of things, including fusion, has some 'depth' to his playing in this setting. But Derrick Shinerian (nothing against the guy) comes off kind of 1 dimensional. He can play fast, and has the cool effects, but it's just missing a level sophistication that is there with Mac & Donati, even in this setting. Thats when I have a problem getting into Prog, but it can be good if it has that certain something. Like when Holdsworth does prog, he has all that shifting harmonic stuff going on, not just the speed. My 2 cents.

Melodic Dreamer

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Re: Progressive Fans??
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2010, 08:58:16 AM »
It is according to what take on Progressive music your talking about. Bands like Porcupine Tree are great, but the Neo-Classical thing isn't my cup of tea. I'm not saying it's bad at all, but I don't prefer it.
One of my favorite guitarist is consider to be a Fusion/Progressive guitarist. His name is Brett Garsed.
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funkle

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Re: Progressive Fans??
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2010, 09:04:43 AM »
His name is Brett Garsed.
Big fan. Especially the Uncle Moe's Space Ranch albums.

scottl

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Re: Progressive Fans??
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2010, 09:08:19 AM »
Brett is terrific.   I just don't like the stuff that shuns blues and jazz as its foundation.   Brett for me is not the same as Macalpine, Petrucci, etc etc.    He has the foundation and core.    There is a blues soul.   He also has the time feel that most shredders/prog players utterly lack.   (again in my opinion for my tastes)

Personally, I can't listen to more than 10 seconds of CAB.    Tony kills at his genre but is a fish out of water in a fusion setting.    Using this example to illustrate my point.   Throw Brett in there and he would kill.    Uncle Moes, case in point!

All in my own worthless opinion of course.


It is according to what take on Progressive music your talking about. Bands like Porcupine Tree are great, but the Neo-Classical thing isn't my cup of tea. I'm not saying it's bad at all, but I don't prefer it.
One of my favorite guitarist is consider to be a Fusion/Progressive guitarist. His name is Brett Garsed.

funkle

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Re: Progressive Fans??
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2010, 09:14:55 AM »
Personally, I can't listen to more than 10 seconds of CAB.    Tony kills at his genre but is a fish out of water in a fusion setting.
That was my take as well, but somehow he kind of snuck in grew on me. BTW, I did see CAB with Mike Miller sitting in for TMac, and coincidentally ran into Bunny the next day at Carvin and discussed it. Mike did an amazing job as usual, but somehow it wasn't CAB without Tony's screeching harmonics :)

Adji

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Re: Progressive Fans??
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2010, 10:31:06 AM »
It is according to what take on Progressive music your talking about. Bands like Porcupine Tree are great, but the Neo-Classical thing isn't my cup of tea. I'm not saying it's bad at all, but I don't prefer it.
One of my favorite guitarist is consider to be a Fusion/Progressive guitarist. His name is Brett Garsed.

Porcupine Tree are one of my favourite bands and I really like Garsed to, though to me he falls more under fusion, at least the stuff I have heard anyway, than progressive.

DøøG

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Re: Progressive Fans??
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2010, 07:56:36 AM »
Why have I met so many guys that like fusion but don't get progressive music?

Personally I love both and would struggle to choose which one I prefer. I think they are more or less the same thing, progressive is just classical's answer to Jazz's fusion no?

To me they are almost the same thing except that progressive is rooted in classical and fusion is rooted in Jazz, however both are about breaking these rules and blurring the lines.

Anyone else agree? Or should I take my lve for progressive elsewhere?  ;D

Hey, it's all music to me, lol. Defining what is fusion or prog is a tough one, there are so many lines blurred, as it should be. There were "prog" bands such as National Health, Hatfield and the North, Soft Machine, Bill Brufords early solo records (what would you call those?)that are definitely rooted in Jazz. It's like trying to define what Rock is these days (or even in those days, lol), it's all over the place......

brain21

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Re: Progressive Fans??
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2010, 09:59:06 AM »

Personally I love both and would struggle to choose which one I prefer. I think they are more or less the same thing, progressive is just classical's answer to Jazz's fusion no?

To me they are almost the same thing except that progressive is rooted in classical and fusion is rooted in Jazz, however both are

I don't agree with the assertion that fusion comes from jazz, and progressive comes from classical, at all.  Just my opinion though.

Technically, the fusion that we all think of here is Jazz-Rock fusion.  Fusion can be a mixing of any styles.  Mixing blues with Indian Ragas is fusion!  Hell, rock n roll was a fusion of blues, country, and a bit of swing!  So Progressive is a form of Fusion.

I think of it like animal classifications.  Fusion would be like "cats" or "Feline" (Family) whereas Progressive is more like a Genus, and something like Progressive Metal is like a species.

Rush is one of the biggest progressive bands of all time.  They aren't really classically influenced.  Yes, obviously was classically influenced among other styles, but there are as many combinations of influences as there are styles.

IOW, I see Progressive as a sub-genre of "Fusion" - but not Jazz-Rock fusion.  :-)

And a lot of "progressive" music is like a lot of "Fusion" (jazz-rock) because sometimes they come to the same place from opposite ends.  Jazz-Rock fusion starts with jazz, adds rock (and a few other things here and there).  "Progressive" (at least when you think of bands like Genesis, Dream Theater, etc.) starts with Rock and adds jazz (and a few other things here and there).  If its got lyrics, chorus, verse, etc. people tend to call it progressive.  If its instrumental people tend to call it fusion.  It all depends....


...and then there is the fusion of Kenny G, and some of the "light-jazz" stuff, that I differentiate by calling it Fuzak.  :-)

Halfdim7

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Re: Progressive Fans??
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2010, 03:25:47 PM »
Well, you seem to be earning your screen name, brain21.
I think that's a good(and detailed) description.
The Rock 'n' Roll being a fusion assertion is something I definitely agree with. I think most people could listen to the guitar in "Race with the Devil"(not to be confused with a similarly titled jazz fusion song!)by the Blue Caps, or a lot of other "rockabilly" stuff, and probably hear the Charlie Christian/Django Reinhardt influence(assuming they've heard those guitarists, of course). And that's not even getting into the obvious blues, R&B and country influences.
I think there is more of a difference between prog and fusion than just the presence or absence of vocals, but there really isn't much of a reliable formula for distinguishing the two.
Then again, this is really just an entertaining diversion, since defining a form of music is, like defining most anything else, pretty subjective.

If you can't Waltz to a Chopin Waltz, is a Chopin Waltz really a Waltz?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 03:28:45 PM by Halfdim7 »
....lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing....