Author Topic: Dogbite's Music Theory  (Read 6284 times)

millions

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Re: Dogbite's Music Theory
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2013, 02:49:31 PM »
Maybe we could load this into a CAD program, for easier visualization.  :o

Maybe the keyboard visualization I've added will help you to see this symmetry. (Every guitar player should have a piano)

BTW, why are we letting that Celebrex commercial live? Is this a public service gesture (secretly funded by the pharmaceutical lobby, who have funkle in their pocket)?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 02:54:42 PM by millions »
"In Spring! In the creation of art, it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg
"The trouble with New Age music is that there's no evil in it."-Brian Eno

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Re: Dogbite's Music Theory
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2013, 11:16:31 PM »
Maybe we could load this into a CAD program, for easier visualization.  :o

Maybe the keyboard visualization I've added will help you to see this symmetry. (Every guitar player should have a piano)

BTW, why are we letting that Celebrex commercial live? Is this a public service gesture (secretly funded by the pharmaceutical lobby, who have funkle in their pocket)?

cad? what a cad! cadmium even...

i reported the spam as such and i'm sure i wasn't the only one but what the heck...

keyboard visualization? show me where!

i do in fact have diagrammed visualizations of the scale sets but i'm thinking of the best way to send them to you guys; expect a pm about this in the near future - hey Halfdim7, welcome to the dialog; i wasn't sure if anyone was looking other than me and millions :)

busy couple of days ahead; gimme a moment to put together some things about this...
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 11:28:09 PM by dogbite »
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Re: Dogbite's Music Theory
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2013, 11:58:52 PM »
Halfdim7,

i do recall that is was you who was (please tell me if i am mistaken) inquiring about the wisdom of using a scale with the root omitted or otherwise altered; for example:

C D E F G A B

becomes

C# D E F G A B

and i wanted to point out that although the root of C ionian is absent from the second scale, that it is not the root of D dorian or E phrygian, etc...

further, the G7(9/#11/13) chord may be used to resolve to the Cmaj7 chord, thus "toggling" the melodic material between scales that include one or the other tones, C or C#...

however, it is may intention to also introduce these scales as not requiring the need for resolution, merely as "colors" of the basic sound associated with the most common usage of the original scale...

for example, the G7#11 scale is called "lydian dominant" by many - but is is exactly this "many syllables" approach which led me to propose, for myself anyway, a simplification of the language so that i don't have to wrestle with somebody calling a set of tones the "auxiliary diminished blues" scale, or something like that.

what is desired is a language that is 1) simple, 2) concise, and 3) intuitive, so that the most complex may be be performed with the least effort...

stay tuned
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 12:02:39 AM by dogbite »
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Re: Dogbite's Music Theory
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2013, 06:06:03 AM »
Dawg/Halfdim, the keyboard visualization is in your mind, hopefully, after my prompt that you go to a piano.

I might also point out that these chromatic alterations of the D-D dorian scale are designed to retain symmetry within each tetrachord. For example, the C# is introduced to the upper tetrachord A B C D, and the Eb is introduced to the lower tetrachord D E F G to retain the symmetry between the two tetrachords.

This brings me to my point: when you invert a set, it retains the identical interval content. Since the starting scale D dorian is itself symmetrical, the lower tetrachord D E F G is related to the upper A B C D by inversion (D C B A). This "same interval content" creates a harmonic unity...to your ears...you know, those two things on the sides of your head...
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 12:53:33 PM by millions »
"In Spring! In the creation of art, it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg
"The trouble with New Age music is that there's no evil in it."-Brian Eno

Halfdim7

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Re: Dogbite's Music Theory
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2013, 04:25:38 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I don't actually understand all of this. I just have a tendency to try to follow along with things(whether I can follow what I'm following or not), in the hopes that I will glean something useful in the process. Call it learning by osmosis. That's why I have Slonimsky on my bookshelf(he doesn't mind, really). Every once in a while, I open up the Thesaurus, stare uncomprehendingly, and think to myself, "one day, this will  turn me into Coltrane." Then I go back to playing video games or watching pornography or whatever.

By the way, millions, not all of us have access to a piano. I do have a microKorg. Is this suitable for the visualization process, or do I need wood?
....lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing....

millions

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Re: Dogbite's Music Theory
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2013, 06:12:29 PM »
That would work, Hº. I've had books on my shelf go unread/uncomprehended for years, then suddenly...Boom! I'm ready for it. This usually happens right after I quit a job I've hated for years, and daytime TV begins to get too boring.
"In Spring! In the creation of art, it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg
"The trouble with New Age music is that there's no evil in it."-Brian Eno

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Re: Dogbite's Music Theory
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2013, 12:50:48 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I don't actually understand all of this. I just have a tendency to try to follow along with things(whether I can follow what I'm following or not), in the hopes that I will glean something useful in the process. Call it learning by osmosis. That's why I have Slonimsky on my bookshelf(he doesn't mind, really). Every once in a while, I open up the Thesaurus, stare uncomprehendingly, and think to myself, "one day, this will  turn me into Coltrane." Then I go back to playing video games or watching pornography or whatever.

By the way, millions, not all of us have access to a piano. I do have a microKorg. Is this suitable for the visualization process, or do I need wood?

wood would be nice i suppose; however, it's just a visualization so i hope you and millions enjoy the sample guitar fretboard visualizations i sent in the form of a jpg in a pm...

btw, feel free to post it here via photobucket if you feel it to be useful. i also agree with millions in that studies formerly sitting on the shelf may take on new relevance and clarity at any time. groove with it, and ask any question whatsoever about the diagram i sent.

g'day gents :)
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Halfdim7

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Re: Dogbite's Music Theory
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2013, 03:28:39 PM »
In order to post the JPEGs here, they'll need to be uploaded to an online server, like PhotoBucket, since fuze-zone doesn't have support for posting images from a local disk.

Dog, are all of these forms to be played at the 4th fret?
....lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing....

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Re: Dogbite's Music Theory
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2013, 06:28:32 PM »
Dog, are all of these forms to be played at the 4th fret?

the lowest frets shown in the diagrams is the fourth fret; therefore, some of the fingerings will begin at the fourth fret while the others (the ones that don't have the very first note shown on the sixth string) will begin at the fifth...

iow, draw an imaginary arabic numeral "4" at the lowest fret on each of the eight diagrams in order for the "parent scale" or "origin" to be G major. the rest will be expansions of the G scale...

'k?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 06:33:34 PM by dogbite »
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Halfdim7

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Re: Dogbite's Music Theory
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2013, 07:17:14 PM »
Roger Wilco. Just wanted to be sure I wasn't approaching bliss from the wrong angle.
....lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing....

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Re: Dogbite's Music Theory
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2013, 06:19:10 PM »
halfdim7,

if you'd like, i can send you a hard copy of all guitar positions (full color, btw) for that - of course millions can have one too if interested...

send me a pm about it; thanks for your indulgence :)

ps - this stuff really does work for me, so i'll help you integrate it into your muse any way i can. none of the scales ("pitch collections" for the anti-CST crowd :)) used are in any way "unstandard," so nothing "new" has been presented other than a set of organizational relationships.
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millions

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Re: Dogbite's Music Theory
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2013, 08:16:17 PM »
I think I have plenty. You know, Dawg, if you really love us, you can provide some more "pragmatic" details about the diagrams themselves. For example, some of the 2 and 3 note sets... do these really need full fingerboard diagrams, or are they better seen as the fragments they are? What are some possible uses for these fragments? Are they better seen as independent entities, or as building blocks for larger structures....are they more "abstract ideas" than "guitaristic ideas"?

NEVER MIND! "Come to me with solutions, not problems."
Here's a way to use some of these smaller sets: with a digital delay pedal, a Boss Looper, or better yet, a Lexicon Jam Man or Gibson Echoplex Digital Pro, I will try planning a pathway through 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 note sets, adding a note at various time-intervals, say every minute. This will yield a 6-minute composition which will become increasingly more complex with each note added. You could even alternate between two sets...
"In Spring! In the creation of art, it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg
"The trouble with New Age music is that there's no evil in it."-Brian Eno

dogbite

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Re: Dogbite's Music Theory
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2013, 09:30:27 PM »
I think I have plenty. You know, Dawg, if you really love us, you can provide some more "pragmatic" details about the diagrams themselves. For example, some of the 2 and 3 note sets... do these really need full fingerboard diagrams, or are they better seen as the fragments they are? What are some possible uses for these fragments? Are they better seen as independent entities, or as building blocks for larger structures....are they more "abstract ideas" than "guitaristic ideas"?

NEVER MIND! "Come to me with solutions, not problems."
Here's a way to use some of these smaller sets: with a digital delay pedal, a Boss Looper, or better yet, a Lexicon Jam Man or Gibson Echoplex Digital Pro, I will try planning a pathway through 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 note sets, adding a note at various time-intervals, say every minute. This will yield a 6-minute composition which will become increasingly more complex with each note added. You could even alternate between two sets...

you know i love you guys, of course in a charleton heston sort of way, and i champion your initiative...

i don't think the two note sets need diagrams but the three note sets do. i use these (2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 note sets) as bizarre warmup exercises for when my personal muse is on hiatus or is otherwise unavailable. i suspect that you may be more of an atonalist than i, but do tell if i am mistaken - in either case, i think of the 352 pitch sets as the "encyclopedia" and the eight modes of five scales i've been discussing here (as well as their frags and combos, fragments and combinations) as my "working vocabulary." there is so much melodic and/or harmonic material here in either approach (you might think of them as "top-down" and "bottom up") to keep you busy for...forever :)

i look forward to hearing what you come up with if it becomes available for us mere mortal mutts. thanks m!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 09:32:15 PM by dogbite »
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millions

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Re: Dogbite's Music Theory
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2013, 02:43:48 PM »
So you see those five scales and their modes as the derived source of your entire vocabulary? I did not know this, and this is significant. Pat Martino also uses the Dorian as the "parent scale" for most of his ideas.
Yet another incentive to learn all your major scales.
So, do the altered notes C# and Eb give you all the other variants from major/dorian that are needed for jazz, such as melodic minor? Yes, the C# gives a D melodic minor...Eb yields a C melodic minor...and all its modes...

Do these altered notes have to be added in sequence?

As far as the 3-note sets, if you are a "harmonic" thinker, wouldn't these be best considered as "fragments" or incomplete scales? As a "tonalist," how are these of any use to you except as "bizarre warm-ups?" With my looping idea, I have demonstrated that they are best used as "incremental steps towards larger harmonic truths."
"In Spring! In the creation of art, it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg
"The trouble with New Age music is that there's no evil in it."-Brian Eno

dogbite

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Re: Dogbite's Music Theory
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2013, 08:39:09 PM »
So you see those five scales and their modes as the derived source of your entire vocabulary? I did not know this, and this is significant. Pat Martino also uses the Dorian as the "parent scale" for most of his ideas.
Yet another incentive to learn all your major scales.

yes, order (tonality) from chaos (atonality), in a consistent and manageable form.

So, do the altered notes C# and Eb give you all the other variants from major/dorian that are needed for jazz, such as melodic minor? Yes, the C# gives a D melodic minor...Eb yields a C melodic minor...and all its modes...

yes, but more than that. each variant (melodic minor, harmonic major and minor, diminished and wholetone, etc) is now directly related to a diatonic scale, along with its well established functions of modality, key sigs, related chords, the works...


Do these altered notes have to be added in sequence?

nope. colors for the palette, to be used at the player's discretion with regards to taste, harmonic environment, tonal centers both real and imaginary...

As far as the 3-note sets, if you are a "harmonic" thinker, wouldn't these be best considered as "fragments" or incomplete scales? As a "tonalist," how are these of any use to you except as "bizarre warm-ups?" With my looping idea, I have demonstrated that they are best used as "incremental steps towards larger harmonic truths."

well, that's the rub isn't it - whether relating to a specific tonal environment or more simply, pure aesthetic judgment (sp?) they may also be used at the player's discretion in a functional or non-functional context. just as harmonic triads may or may not be considered as subsets of a larger realm, all of these "lesser" sets (meaning lesser than the tonal scales they may or may not be derived from) are there to do with what you will. i mostly use consonant (major and minor) triads and their inversions in a functional (tonal) context but i would never dictate to a player that this must always be so.

edit: many other three-tone sets or triads may be viewed also as incomplete seventh or larger chords from tonal environments. end edit...

sometimes, as regards to an analysis of real music, i would always leave myself the option to revert to the potentially oxymoronic truism, "it is what it is." in other words, i use the set theory template to "show me all the possibilities," so that my tonal landscape (my rose colored spectacles if you will) doesn't cheat me out of something that may be real cool, simply because it doesn't fit into a well-defined functional environment. for example, most of the triads do in fact fit into some kind of tonal context but i still lack the twelve-dimensional vision that may be necessary to see all of the particulars on the fly; therefore, i use the set theory template (all possible pitch sets) as a backup (as you would an encyclopedia) for the tonal perspective previously discussed (as you would a universal translator) - from many, a few; and from a few, many.

and then throw all of this poo out the nearest airlock and play with all of the variations of emotional intensity you can muster with your favorite axe in order to tell a story, make 'em cry, incite a riot or just play some nice and/or memorable music, worthy of the effort...

whew, did i just write that? tell me if i'm making sense :)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 08:52:12 PM by dogbite »
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